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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #1 
This is a great way of pinning down dates and perhaps revealing an odd surprise along the way!

Not straightforward to track down, this mini-collection took a while to find, and was only possible with a $16 scan from another library collection.

(1) The Between the Acts patent, as passed on to ATC/Lorillard, noting its first use as a trademark in May 1877, in line with the date published in other advertising:

BA tm.jpg 

(2) Some advertising confirming a stated patent/trademark date of 8 May 1877.

BA tm2.jpg 

I'm still trying to pin down the actual trademark and patent from back in 1877. I think I've worked out how to find it (if it exists), just its a bit of a manual slog unless I can find a search mechanism. But this is enough for now. Perhaps someone else knows how to find the originals?


tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #2 
Now for the interesting stuff …..

(3) The Bravo trademark, March 12, 1878, "just adopted".

This starts to give us a clue that Bravo followed on from Between the Acts, around 10 months after the Between The Acts brand was launched (May 1877).

So anything (and card) with Bravo on the front or back is very likely after March 12 1878. This is not completely conclusive - I have seen some info where brands were used prior to their trademark. But I think its very strong evidence and I have some further corroborating information (another thread).

Bravo tm.jpg

tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #3 
And a surprise ...

(4) The Dramatico brand - May 7, 1878, "used in my business this 2 months past" - so, this dates back to March 1878, same time as the Bravo brand launch.

Needless to say, readers will immediately recognise the 7 portraits below, all belonging to the Hall's front cards (7 of the known 14 cards, putting the Emily Rigl card to one side for the moment). Notable is the inclusion of Henrietta Chanfrau (Thomas H Hall's aunt-in-law) at her real age of the time.

This gives another strong clue that at least these 7 cards were printed prior to March 1878.

Does anyone know anything about this Dramatico brand?

Dramatico tm.jpg 
Dramatico tm2.jpg 


Dramatico tm3.jpg

Joe_G.

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Reply with quote  #4 
High quality research Tim, thank you for sharing, hope others are able to add to it.  This is a popular issue with some advanced collectors.  I personally had never heard of El Dramatico.
__________________
Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
Collecter of several 19th century SF Hess and Consolidated Cigarette sets . . .
& Pre-ATC Merger (1890 & earlier) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #5 
The El Dramatico trademark brand came from the Warshaw collection - see information below.

When I emailed the contact email address they were very helpful. You need to look through the downloadable reference pdf of the collection to try to pinpoint what you want. And they will then scan at $1 per page (pre-payment required) and send electronically. There were 3 Thomas H Hall trademarks - Bravo and El Dramatico, per above, plus Rose of Egypt which I'll post below.

You have to take a bit of pot luck - but there may be some treasures in there if you stray further afield than Thomas H Hall (3 trademarks) and Joseph Hall (two headed paper invoice/bills, one of which I posted on MoL thread when on the trail of the Emily Rigl card history).

Title: Warshaw Collection of Business Americana: Business Ephemera: Tobacco Trade and Industry

 

Extent and Forms of Material: 10 cubic feet (20 document boxes, 5 oversize folders)     Scope and Content:  This subject category, “Tobacco Trade and Industry,” consists of materials related to the tobacco trade and industry.  This subject category provides an extensive record of the late nineteenth to mid-twentieth century tobacco industry with materials for consumers, traders, and distributors.  It forms part of the Warshaw Collection of Business Americana: Collection Division I: Business Ephemera and Division II: Oversize Materials.  

System of Arrangement: The arrangement scheme for the material has been created by the Archives Center. 

Series 1, Tobacco and Tobacco-Related Product Ephemera, 1781-1965; undated

Series 2, Patents and Trademarks, 1875-1904

Series 3, Bills of Lading, 1833-1925

Series 4, Lithographs, undated

Series 5, Ephemera and Photographs, 1750-1957; undated

Series 6, Publications, 1832-1962; undated 


tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #6 
(5) Rose of Egypt - not very exciting and not one I've heard of - maybe never used??

roe1.jpg  roe2.jpg

tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #7 
(6) Actual Between the Acts trademark filing.

Finally pinned down the "Between the Acts" trademark, per below, filed 11 May 1877. The application states the brand has been used "for two months past", dating the first Between the Acts cigarettes as March 1877.

If (and its a big if!) we can pin down some reference to cards being inserted from the outset, then we have a new date of March 1877 for the earliest insert cards.

The first Thomas H Hall Between the Acts launch advert was in Tobacco Leaf (from other thread) dated 11 April 1877, which ties in with a March 1877 earliest date. 

Note that the packaging at the top of this post states the trademark as 8 May 1877. It was actually filed 3 days after this on 11 May 1877, but only registered on 12 June 1877.

No mention of insert portraits/cards of actresses, unfortunately. But a clear reference to 'boxes' and a picture that looks very much like the cigarette boxes shown in the Gallery - picture below.
Patent - Thos Hall Between Acts - part 1.jpg 
Patent - Thos Hall Between Acts - part 2.jpg  Patent - Thos Hall Between Acts - part 3.jpg 


Joe_G.

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Reply with quote  #8 
I'll ask a silly question regarding the different color boxes.  I have several of the red packs (far left), they are all near the time of ATC merger (1895) and are the most common.  All of these red packs have a "COLORADO" slide.  The Orange/Brown packs seem to be older and all state "COL. MADURO" (I don't own the pictured pack) and the black packs (again older) have "MADURO" slides.  Are these slides referring to a particular tobacco?
BTA Variations.jpg


__________________
Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
Collecter of several 19th century SF Hess and Consolidated Cigarette sets . . .
& Pre-ATC Merger (1890 & earlier) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
tim_uk

Senior Member
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Posts: 139
Reply with quote  #9 
Interesting writing on the ends of the boxes - very similar to the Climax box (which became Whiting later).

The words are just a reference to cigar light to dark shade graduation, I think. This covers it in a contemporary book ....

maduro.jpg

Joe_G.

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Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks Tim, interesting.  Others took the more direct approach (here are three varieties of Consol Cigarettes from early 1890s).

Mild_Medium_Dark - 150dpi.jpg 

Regarding the BTA packs, I'd love to see scans from each side of David Epps pack with the "222 Greenwich" address.  I assume it is an old orange/brown pack perhaps with a "COL. MADURO" slide?


__________________
Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
Collecter of several 19th century SF Hess and Consolidated Cigarette sets . . .
& Pre-ATC Merger (1890 & earlier) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
David EPPS

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Reply with quote  #11 
Joe, These are the 3 packs I have showing the ends. Interestingly, the inside of the black/red pack is also printed in the pink design.

PACKET INSIDE.jpg  PACKETS.jpg   

Joe_G.

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Reply with quote  #12 
Very Cool David !

Having a Maduro outer skin and a Colorado inside is real interesting.

I also notice that while our packs are about same vintage, both having a series of 1883 tax stamp (which ran from 1883 to 1893), they have different slides implicating a total of four box companies!  I think you indicated an 1888 cancel, I cannot read the cancel on mine.

David Epps vs My Pack.jpg 

Your pack is Climax Cigarette Box, manufactured by the Whiting Box Co.
My pack is Acme Cigarette Box, manufactured by Munson & Co.

They appear to be the same design but reference different patents etc.  I also note that most Thomas Hall packs have a couple numbers written on the slide.  Later packs actually requested "Maker No." and "Packer No." and I suspect that is what we see scribed in pencil at the bottom of our slides.  (don't erase that history!)


__________________
Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski
Collecter of several 19th century SF Hess and Consolidated Cigarette sets . . .
& Pre-ATC Merger (1890 & earlier) cigarette packs and redemption coupons from all manufacturers
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