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swarmee

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If you aren't reading the baseball side of Net54, it would behoove you to take a look.  Follow some of those threads over to Blowout Forums.

The Gary Moser thread spells out some of it, but make sure you're aware of the current status of the sports card market.  And some of this has trickled into the nonsports genre (like 1952 Look N See), but if consumer confidence in the grading card companies crashes, it affects everyone.

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Steve_NY

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After you posted all of the details on this Non Sports site, I followed your links and found what you had referred to. I agree with you that this is serious stuff and just can't understand why more collectors are not getting really bent out of shape. Probably because they have too much invested in graded cards.

Isn't it true that the grading companies are there to verify that the submitted items have in no way been altered? How can you depend upon their expertise after such an episode? I blame all of the individuals who were involved in these acts -- not just the ones who pulled off this scam but also those that have been unwittingly involved or duped.

I am not a big fan of grading, but how can anyone truly trust this process anymore? 

You owe it to yourself to follow the links and look to what extent this has occurred on the sports side.

Steve 
boxingcardman

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The critical take-away from this is that the third party graders ("TPGs") are clueless when it comes to detecting skilled card alterations and have been letting all sorts of bad materials through for years.  The items outed lately are likely just the tip of the iceberg.  As long as people with more money than expertise are willing to treat a TPG holder as a sacrosanct statement of quality, there will be a problem.  I am so glad that the vast majority of my collection are raw cards and that most of the cards I have in slabs were raw cards I sent in.  

One irony of this is that for years those of us who have been collecting since before the start of this TPG stuff have continually raised the alarm about the relatively large amount of allegedly high grade vintage cards.  We never used to see prewar cards in anything like the condition that they are allegedly in now.  Those of us who've purchased collections from original owners rarely see anything like the clean, sharp, centered cards that are marketed in the TPG high grade slabs.  They seemed to pop out of nowhere; now we know where.

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egbeachley

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True. Back in the early 1980s I had a T206 Chesbro that I “overpaid” for. But I got sooooo many compliments on how it was the nicest one anyone had seen before. It was a 7 at best.
swarmee

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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1020696/psa-s-response-to-recent-hobby-message-boards

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bcornell

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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingcardman
We never used to see prewar cards in anything like the condition that they are allegedly in now.


Amen.  I spent much of my youth at shows and shops in New England (Bishop Guertin in Nashua, Cranston, Hall's Nostalgia, etc.).  High grade cards never appeared then; they were created later.

Also, the response from Steve Sloan @ PSA is the type of phony mitigation we've come to expect.  It's "isolated" and they're working on it.  Right.

Bill

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monsterwax

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I wouldn't blame the victims as much as I would blame the perps and their grading companies for taking the money without doing the necessary inspection to prevent it. (After all, measuring all the mint condition vintage cards would "waste" valuable time they could spend grading additional cards and raking in extra profits.) When they say they are "looking into it", what they mean is that they are hoping no one else points out other examples and it will all blow over ASAP. The last thing in the world they will do is look for and expose other instances of them being fooled. 
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monsterwax

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It will also be interesting to see if (or when) victims of this scam start suing the companies that helped defraud them. Of course, they will sue the A-hole who sold them the card (but he's probably spent most the booty already). But if someone sells you worthless house with the endorsement of a professional appraisal, it goes without saying that both the seller and the inspection/appraisal company are liable. 
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wdmullins

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Quote:
Originally Posted by monsterwax
(After all, measuring all the mint condition vintage cards would "waste" valuable time they could spend grading additional cards and raking in extra profits.) 


I recently bought a group of Power for Peace cards (shown on the June pickups thread).  They obviously have been together for 65 years, and are generally in good condition.  If you put them in a stack and even them up, they vary in size by as much as a millimeter.  So what measurement should PSA compare a submitted card to?

If "standard" is 2-1/2 x 3-3/4", should a card that is 2-15/32 x 3-3/4 be automatically listed as "trimmemd"?  Because I have some that are that size, and are not trimmed.  There was just variation in the original cutting.

How do you expect PSA to tell the difference between a card that was cut at 2-15/32" wide in 1953/1954, and one that was cut at 2-1/2 back then and trimmed to 2-15/32 6 months ago?

I think the only thing they can do is report "standard" widths; report statistics on pack-opened cards (something like "nominal dimension is 63.5mm wide, with 90% of new cards being between 63.1 and 63.9 mm wide.  This card is 63.4 mm wide.")
swarmee

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Reply with quote  #10 
I expect them to tell because they explicitly declare that they can tell original factory cuts from newer cut styles.  Now did they know that factory rough cuts are also being replicated by Moser for sets like Look N See?  They're the experts and declare that they can, so yes, they are either lying or incapable.  As long as they pay out their grade guarantee refunds, it doesn't really matter which.
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Brian

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Certainly an extreme low point in the world of TPG's.!!!!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #12 
Can someone else look at EBAY item 372683279932 and tell me if the whole right side is trimmed? Looks that way to me, but now everything I look at looks trimmed now..It is a 1951 Bowman Psa 7 Mantle..Thank you..  
swarmee

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Reply with quote  #13 
Certainly odd-looking, especially from the back view.  Send them a message through eBay to have it reviewed by PSA.  Very old Cert number that has been reholdered recently, so it's been in PSA's hands multiple times.
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