Vintage Non-Sports Cards
Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Baseball Links Gallery of Non-Sports Cards
Vintage Non-sports Forum
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #1 
If you aren't reading the baseball side of Net54, it would behoove you to take a look.  Follow some of those threads over to Blowout Forums.

The Gary Moser thread spells out some of it, but make sure you're aware of the current status of the sports card market.  And some of this has trickled into the nonsports genre (like 1952 Look N See), but if consumer confidence in the grading card companies crashes, it affects everyone.

__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

Steve_NY

Member
Registered:
Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #2 
After you posted all of the details on this Non Sports site, I followed your links and found what you had referred to. I agree with you that this is serious stuff and just can't understand why more collectors are not getting really bent out of shape. Probably because they have too much invested in graded cards.

Isn't it true that the grading companies are there to verify that the submitted items have in no way been altered? How can you depend upon their expertise after such an episode? I blame all of the individuals who were involved in these acts -- not just the ones who pulled off this scam but also those that have been unwittingly involved or duped.

I am not a big fan of grading, but how can anyone truly trust this process anymore? 

You owe it to yourself to follow the links and look to what extent this has occurred on the sports side.

Steve 
boxingcardman

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 93
Reply with quote  #3 
The critical take-away from this is that the third party graders ("TPGs") are clueless when it comes to detecting skilled card alterations and have been letting all sorts of bad materials through for years.  The items outed lately are likely just the tip of the iceberg.  As long as people with more money than expertise are willing to treat a TPG holder as a sacrosanct statement of quality, there will be a problem.  I am so glad that the vast majority of my collection are raw cards and that most of the cards I have in slabs were raw cards I sent in.  

One irony of this is that for years those of us who have been collecting since before the start of this TPG stuff have continually raised the alarm about the relatively large amount of allegedly high grade vintage cards.  We never used to see prewar cards in anything like the condition that they are allegedly in now.  Those of us who've purchased collections from original owners rarely see anything like the clean, sharp, centered cards that are marketed in the TPG high grade slabs.  They seemed to pop out of nowhere; now we know where.

__________________
God is not on our side because He hates idiots
The demagogue is the public face of collective stupidity
How did a life on the wild side ever get so dull?
We can be heroes, just for one day
http://www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
egbeachley

Member
Registered:
Posts: 63
Reply with quote  #4 
True. Back in the early 1980s I had a T206 Chesbro that I “overpaid” for. But I got sooooo many compliments on how it was the nicest one anyone had seen before. It was a 7 at best.
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #5 
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1020696/psa-s-response-to-recent-hobby-message-boards

__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

bcornell

Avatar / Picture

Defender & Offender
Registered:
Posts: 71
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingcardman
We never used to see prewar cards in anything like the condition that they are allegedly in now.


Amen.  I spent much of my youth at shows and shops in New England (Bishop Guertin in Nashua, Cranston, Hall's Nostalgia, etc.).  High grade cards never appeared then; they were created later.

Also, the response from Steve Sloan @ PSA is the type of phony mitigation we've come to expect.  It's "isolated" and they're working on it.  Right.

Bill

__________________
Bill Cornell
my hobby website: The Trader Speaks
monsterwax

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 50
Reply with quote  #7 
I wouldn't blame the victims as much as I would blame the perps and their grading companies for taking the money without doing the necessary inspection to prevent it. (After all, measuring all the mint condition vintage cards would "waste" valuable time they could spend grading additional cards and raking in extra profits.) When they say they are "looking into it", what they mean is that they are hoping no one else points out other examples and it will all blow over ASAP. The last thing in the world they will do is look for and expose other instances of them being fooled. 
__________________
a.k.a. KurtK
monsterwax

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 50
Reply with quote  #8 
It will also be interesting to see if (or when) victims of this scam start suing the companies that helped defraud them. Of course, they will sue the A-hole who sold them the card (but he's probably spent most the booty already). But if someone sells you worthless house with the endorsement of a professional appraisal, it goes without saying that both the seller and the inspection/appraisal company are liable. 
__________________
a.k.a. KurtK
wdmullins

Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by monsterwax
(After all, measuring all the mint condition vintage cards would "waste" valuable time they could spend grading additional cards and raking in extra profits.) 


I recently bought a group of Power for Peace cards (shown on the June pickups thread).  They obviously have been together for 65 years, and are generally in good condition.  If you put them in a stack and even them up, they vary in size by as much as a millimeter.  So what measurement should PSA compare a submitted card to?

If "standard" is 2-1/2 x 3-3/4", should a card that is 2-15/32 x 3-3/4 be automatically listed as "trimmemd"?  Because I have some that are that size, and are not trimmed.  There was just variation in the original cutting.

How do you expect PSA to tell the difference between a card that was cut at 2-15/32" wide in 1953/1954, and one that was cut at 2-1/2 back then and trimmed to 2-15/32 6 months ago?

I think the only thing they can do is report "standard" widths; report statistics on pack-opened cards (something like "nominal dimension is 63.5mm wide, with 90% of new cards being between 63.1 and 63.9 mm wide.  This card is 63.4 mm wide.")
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #10 
I expect them to tell because they explicitly declare that they can tell original factory cuts from newer cut styles.  Now did they know that factory rough cuts are also being replicated by Moser for sets like Look N See?  They're the experts and declare that they can, so yes, they are either lying or incapable.  As long as they pay out their grade guarantee refunds, it doesn't really matter which.
__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #11 
Certainly an extreme low point in the world of TPG's.!!!!!!!!!
Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #12 
Can someone else look at EBAY item 372683279932 and tell me if the whole right side is trimmed? Looks that way to me, but now everything I look at looks trimmed now..It is a 1951 Bowman Psa 7 Mantle..Thank you..  
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #13 
Certainly odd-looking, especially from the back view.  Send them a message through eBay to have it reviewed by PSA.  Very old Cert number that has been reholdered recently, so it's been in PSA's hands multiple times.
__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

wdmullins

Member
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Can someone else look at EBAY item 372683279932 and tell me if the whole right side is trimmed? Looks that way to me, but now everything I look at looks trimmed now..It is a 1951 Bowman Psa 7 Mantle..Thank you..  


1.  Perhaps there is a sports card forum somewhere that is better suited for this question.

2.  Why do you care so much about other people's opinion of this card?  PSA has already given theirs, but you don't seem to trust it.  If I offered an opinion, would you trust it?  Is there anyone in the whole world who would say definitively "yes it is trimmed" or "no it is not trimmed" that would make you respond, "thank goodness, now I know for sure".  

IF you think the card is worth $35000, and you have the money and want it, then buy it.  If you don't think it is worth that much, then don't buy it.  Whether or not I or anyone else thinks one edge has been trimmed really doesn't make much difference.


Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #15 
First off I apologize for asking a Baseball card question in the Non-Sport card forum. Thought because the conversation was about trimmed cards I could get an opinion anyway(My bad) Won't happen again after this post..
 
Second I care about people's opinion on this board because they have been doing this a lot longer then me and exactly what Swarmee suggested I am going to do. So it helped. 

The card is worth that ($35,000) if not trimmed..Just wanted some more eyes on it so I am comfortable asking PSA and Dave's cards the tough questions..

Since this trimming scandal with PWCC has come about, I now question everything. I have 9 cards going back to them for trimming..

Signing off...   
egbeachley

Member
Registered:
Posts: 63
Reply with quote  #16 
Brian, I don’t see anything wrong with your question as it pertains to the topic of PSA doing a very poor job detecting trimming and that it’s irrelevant whether a sports or non-sports card.

And I would do the same thing, ask others whether they think an expensive PSA card is trimmed because seriously, PSA (and Beckett) cannot be relied upon. I mean they graded an entire set of 1948 Leaf football where every single card was trimmed, and trimmed significantly. Every. Single. One.

Plus, people on this forum are usually nicer, the prior response being the exception.

I haven’t looked at the card yet but even if I thought it was good regarding the size I would want to check in person if it was recolorwd, another failing of PSA. And even then, I think the scandal will likely cause all prices to drop in the next 3-12 months and would wait anyway.

Good luck on the returns. I would be surprised if PWCC gave a refund unless they thought PSA would reimburse them. So expect to get them back.
egbeachley

Member
Registered:
Posts: 63
Reply with quote  #17 
Just looked at the card. Stay Away From It!

Borders look really bad. Lower left corner seems to be missing its 90 degree cut. The rough cut looks too rough. Right border looks bad as you say and has a batwing on bottom. Even if this was not trimmed, I doubt anyone would believe you and you’d never get your money back.
Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #18 
Thank you !!
Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #19 
Has anyone sent cards back to PWCC that they say are altered?? Thanks
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #20 
Some people on net54 and blowout have reported getting refunds out of PWCC.
__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #21 
Is there any more noise about these situations or has it died down as PSA had hoped??
Steve_NY

Member
Registered:
Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #22 
I think we will know more after next weeks National in Chicago. Will graded cards continue to be bought significantly or will there be a return to raw cards? Personally I find it unacceptable that the grading of trimmed cards was so prevalent. But even though I have never graded anything, it will certainly blow over. There is just too much money involved and none of those who play that game will allow it to get out of hand. Either way grading has been very good for my sales even though I sell raw ungraded cards and packs. For someone to buy a mint card from me for let’s say $100 and turn it into thousands of dollars or more, that’s okay with me as long as I make my profit.

Steve S
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #23 
It was covered in both the New York Times and Washington Post.  Most recent news is that vintage collector Jeff Lichtman (calvindog on Net54 baseball side) has agreed to represent Brent and PWCC in their investigation by the FBI.  Jeff posted yesterday on Net54 explaining his reasoning, where he is working to get as many affected consumers refunds from the people who committed this fraud; there is a Sports Collectors Daily article on their website talking about this. 

PSA is not talking much, but Joe Orlando kind of stepped in it with his latest SMR article where he talks about his service, kind of waves off criticism, and then continues to end with his catchphrase "Never Get Cheated"; that's rubbing people the wrong way.  

Blowout is still exposing cards that have been trimmed and some egregiously recolored Mayos with black backs.  There is another thread on blowout about cards that were not actually paid for/delivered that were sold by PWCC on eBay, but still show as "historical prices" on services like worthpoint and VCP.  There were many of these "not paid for" cards from the summer of 2016 when Brent claimed a "Buyers Group" was pushing prices (aka market collusion).  This could be another track the FBI investigation goes on.

__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

Brian

Member
Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #24 
Thank you all for such great information on something that needs getting out there..Too many people taken advantage of by these swindlers !!
swarmee

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 133
Reply with quote  #25 
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1309614  
Here's another questionable seller that should be at the National right now.  After reading the first page, skip over all the drama and go to page 8 to see the submissions those altered cards were in.  Looks like this family business likes the Mars Attacks set, and also graded a Look N See Babe Ruth that got a PSA 9.

__________________

PSA: "Sometimes Get Cheated"
https://www.comc.com/Users/mjohnatgt,sr,i100 

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.