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DanCalandriello

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Reply with quote  #1 

Henry Moses, in an old post, shared a link where more
images might be found for this particular webpage.
https://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Pictures/American-Indians-00.html

 Scroll down for latest "origins" webpage

1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #2 
very neat. I think there were a couple of posts back a bit with a collection of all fifty indians that was claimed to be the original artwork (I assume taken from the paintings collection housed in the Department of the Interior that burned).
While some of the images shown are close it seems only a few are exact matches.

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1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #3 
Didn't see the above second post while I was keying. Different link to different images but valuable nonetheless. If time permits I'll try and track it down. Know it was mention or discussed couple of times.



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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #4 
Its quite easy to Google each card and look at the Images tab to try to find a match.

I've had a go at the first 5 cards and found 4 of them.

I suspect the 'origin' images are scattered in various contemporary photographs - and not in one place.

Over to other forum members....

1. Agate Arrow Point

1. Agate Arrow Point.jpg 

2. Always Riding
  
2. Always Riding.jpg 
3. Arkikita - Otoe tribe - can't find.....


4. Big Bear

4. Big Bear.jpg 

5. Big Chief (Gihega)

5. Big Chief.jpg


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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #5 
41. Sitting Bull - this one took a bit of finding. This is the correct image, to replace the one in the Gallery.

41. Sitting Bull.jpg 

38. Red Shirt. This one is already in the gallery, but I wanted to show the full photo.  Whilst the other images seem to be close copies, the illustrator has added a full red shirt.

38. Red Shirt.jpg 

16. Chief Joseph - nice shirt!
16. Chief Joseph.jpg 

25. Iron Bull - plus wife
25. Iron Bull.jpg 
12. British

12. British.jpg 
14. Cayatanita

14. Cayatanita.jpg 
7. Big Razor (aka Big Blade)

7. Big Razor or Blade.jpg 


They're easy to find (mostly). Must be someone else out there willing to have a go?



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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #6 
Fantastic effort Dan!

I think there are still a few mismatches in there: Geronimo, Arkikita, Red Bird don't look correct to me. But the others look to check out ok precisely (more or less), on a quick review.

I couldn't find the origin photo for Great Bear when I tried, so that is also outstanding.

Also note that the well-known 4 error cards are simply incorrect allocations of the 50 images - so we only have 50 'origin' images to find altogether.

Probably best to get them up in the Gallery in numbered order, including missing slots - and see if forum members can contribute to filling out or improving the remaining images.

Personally, I'd prefer to see the full origin photo in the Gallery, including any backing info on the image (eg the Chief Joseph image above showing the photo history and shirt auction), and not a cut-down version that focuses on the card image. You could, technology permitting, show both - the origin photo and the cut-down version, next to the actual N2 card. But I don't have to do the work!

Its great to have these original photos recorded against what is one of the most iconic card sets of all-time. Hope others feel the same.

Anyone fancy helping out finding the 'origin' photos/cabinet cards for the Between the Acts actresses/actors ??? (perhaps another day)

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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #7 
Still can't find a good match to Geronimo, but the image seems to come from a series of photos taken by C S Fly (see Wikipedia), before his surrender in March 1886.

Here's the best match I can find, taken from Geronimo on horseback. Looks like the headscarf was copied and the face/hair/body was reflected, with the scarf embellished to replace the top of the horse's head. Or there could be another image somewhere that's a better match.

Geronimo 2.jpg 


Some other C S Fly images:

Geronimo.jpg


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teza

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Reply with quote  #8 
Young Whirlwind less the hat.

Jeff

Young Whirlwind o.jpg 



teza

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Reply with quote  #9 
Keokuk's son.

Jeff

Keokuk's Son o.jpg 

wdmullins

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Reply with quote  #10 
I found many of these ten years ago:

https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/post/another-workinprogress-comparing-four-small-indian-sets-images-9589764?highlight=smithsonian



DanCalandriello

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Reply with quote  #11 

http://www.moviecard.com/gallery/allen-ginter/n2-origins.html

Bill, credits to you have been added. Thanks

Tim, If you want to improve images I have posted, do your magic and post a two-image jpg --  it would be added / upgraded.
tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #12 
Still a few stubbornly difficult to find images.

Here's the correct images for Grey Eagle, Great Bear and Spotted Tail and improved images for Great War Chief (search for Manuelito) and Noon Day.

Plus White Swan (improved) and White Shield (I think this was missing, but easy to find).

23. Grey Eagle.jpg 
21. Great Bear.jpg 

42. Spotted Tail.jpg 


22. Great War Chief.jpg

35. Noon Day.jpg

47. White Shield.jpg  48. White Swan.jpg 



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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #13 
I think we now have the correct images for 47/50 of the cards - just need to chip away at some further upgrades - sounds like card collecting......

The 3 problem cases are: Arkikita and Black Hawk (Sioux), still missing. And Crow's Breast look like the wrong image to me.

I've tried in vain to find these 3 (so far).

Teza's Young Whirlwind (no hat) looks like the correct image to me, but the illustrator has removed the hat for some reason.

Overall only two of the images seem to have been be materially changed (Geronimo and Young Whirlwind), plus Red Shirt had his shirt coloured in.

One final one for tonight .... just two to go .....

Arkeketah - someone needs to let the Smithsonian know this wasn't created in 1894.

3. Arkikita.jpg 


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teza

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Reply with quote  #14 
Possible contender for Black Hawk?

Jeff

Black Hawk c.jpg 

tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #15 
Don't think so Jeff.

Here's my best shot at Crow's Breast (on the right) ..... still not right though.
Crows Breast.jpg 


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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #16 
Looks like Black Hawk (Dakota Sioux) is actually White Thunder (Brule Sioux).

Something has definitely gone wrong on the A&G illustration.

Here's various White Thunder clippings:

White Thunder.jpg 

10. Black Hawk White Thunder.jpg 



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