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MorrellMan

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Reply with quote  #1 
I have the ATC, the Beckett NS books, the NS Bible, the Canadian NS Catalogue as well as the 4 British pubs below - but I see lots of references for complete checklists to the WTI and/or the NAT1. 

I'm looking specifically for a comprehensive and complete checklist (photographic or otherwise) of the N359 set.  Would (1) either provide the info I'm looking for and (2) are they available for purchase somewhere?

img1809.jpg  img1810.jpg 


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Mark Hellman
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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Mark,

The best site for a picture checklist is Todd's non-sport.com site. Here: http://www.non-sport.com/

Just enter N359 and off you go. All 31 card are pictured.

There are a number of front and back variations, which are set out in NATI, or CRB151 as I call it (North American Tobacco Issues / Cartophilic Reference Book 151). I believe all front/back variations are shown on Todd's site.

Here's the scan from CRB151 on Venables N359. If you wish to buy a copy, please visit the CSGB site here: https://www.card-world.co.uk/publications/. The NATI is £50 for overseas non-members.

N359.jpg 


And, for completeness, here's the spine view of the WTI 5 volumes and the year 2000 update to the World Tobacco Issues index part 1 and 2, plus CRB151 (on the right). For a complete listing for USA Tobacco issues, you need all 8 volumes, although there is some repetition and, of course, they cover the World, not just USA. The ACC is cross-referenced where appropriate.

Some of these are now out of print, but some are still available on the CSGB site, or second hand on eBay.

WTI.jpg 

I like your 4 photos above. The 3 price lists are pretty common and of no practical use these days. The Dorothy Bagnall book is a classic (from around 1970) and worth a read / flick through, although it is focused on UK cards in the main. Dorothy Bagnall was the daughter of Colonel Charles Bagnall, who founded the London Cigarette Card Company and was the first person to turn card collecting into a business (arguably Gooding and perhaps Hickman were earlier, but LCCCo launched on a larger scale) when his company was formed around 1931 with literally millions of cards in stock in the 1930s. Numerous other collectors followed suit launching card sales businesses.


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(ii) And any cards pre-1885, particularly Thos. H. Hall.
nscards

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Reply with quote  #3 
I can help with the N359/N280 sets. I'd love to obtain images of the ten missing cards (or any other cards not currently known) for the visual checklist. Feel free to ask questions concerning the format....I realize that stock issue, subtypes and the novel cataloguing system might be a 'jolt' to some...

Having catalogued for coming up on 2 decades, I'm trying to remain neutral about cataloguing comments. Needless to say, every cataloguer thinks they've built a 'bigger, better mousetrap"....and I'd remind everyone that both the ACC and WTI/NWTI underwent revisions in cataloguing format/numbers (even the authors's thoughts on the matter seem to evolve).

 
Attached Files
pdf nsb_chapters_Actresses_2020.05.31.pdf (46.21 MB, 15 views)


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Chris Watson

MorrellMan

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Reply with quote  #4 
Tim and Chris - thanks for the help.

Chris, thank you again for that link - I saw it once before and got confused comparing it to my collection.  For some reason, I decided many years ago to focus only on Cockade cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting those four pages - I see two categories, the first with 31 cards and the second with 76 cards.

You show the first group of 31 as containing 28 Cockade cards, designated "AF", of which I am missing 10.

The second group of 76 cards show the Cockade cards designated "AH", of which there are none shown in your checklist, however I have 18 of them - cards numbered 53-75 excepting 56, 61, 67 & 70.

I notice that your checklist for the second group (of 76) shows cards 51-75 as "AF", but your however your subset index shows the AF as being a Venable Ideal subset..  Was that a typo?  And if so, not that #s 59 & 65 have neither the AF not AH listed, of which both I have with Cockade backs.

My cards also appear to be of three distinct sizes:

img1812.jpg


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Mark Hellman
nscards

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hey Mark - 

Thanks for the correspondence. Will try to elucidate the two listings.

But believe most of the confusion by appreciation of dashes, instead of commas in the checklist; all subtypes between the two confirmed when dash present!

Are card sizes appreciably different from:

[PHO2259] = 56 x 96 mm

[PHO2359] = 60 x 102 mm

Chris





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Chris Watson
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Reply with quote  #6 
Martin Murray's book has the Cockade cards located in two different N Sets..

31 cards make up N359.....25 cards make up N280-2..

That makes 55 cards..

I see that it was mentioned earlier as Cockade has 76 cards..

If someone could point me the remaining 21 cards, that would be great..
nscards

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Reply with quote  #7 
Including the ones Mark mentions that he has, 52 different Cockade Cut Plug cards have been confirmed, as follows:

Actresses [NSB# ACT2259.  ACC# N359 - see NATI p. 267) #1-31, measuring 56 x 96 mm (someone please confirm #5, 16 & 22 exist with 'Cockade' backs!) again, because of the multiple subtypes found in this set neither the WTI nor NATI document their existence, and I can only account for those definitively documented, confirmed in collections or seen with my own eyes. I'd be shocked if these three cards don't actually exist with 'Cockade Cut Plug' backs, but I can't definitively say that they do.

Actresses (NSB# ACT2359   ACC# N280** per reassignment in NATI pp. 220-222)
#51-75, measuring 60 x 102mm (someone please confirm #56 exists with 'Cockade' back!; I can't find specific reference in any of the WTI, NWTI or NATI - all make reference to 'Cockade', 'Ideal' or 'Pluck'...I'm confident it exists, but my reading of this that this specific card has one of these backs, but not necessarily all three). Also, please recall from earlier posting that cards #49 and 54 are the same in the NATI checklist (pp 221-222), but Mark posted two previously unidentified Buchner cards in February 2019 that became the "replacement" #49 and the "new" #76 - - see post entitled "N359A Cockade Actresses" for full details

If these four "unconfirmed" numbers exist, then the number of possible 'Cockade Cut Plug' cards would total FIFTY-SIX.

Seriously - All card numbers shown in the above PDF correspond to the ones in NATI, except for the change in #49 and the addition of #76....if you have one of the missing images, please post - Let's end this madness!




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Chris Watson
nscards

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Reply with quote  #8 
Mark - 

I have to apologize. After scrutinizing the segment on [ACT2359], I finally realized what you were talking about with the fact that there were no subtypes (AI & AJ)...resulting in major confusion (to be honest, I can't remember what I was thinking at the time).

I have revised this, taken out the "dashes" in the "confirmed subtypes" section (to avoid further confusion), and added the confirmed card #'s for each subtype under their descriptions...hoping to further clarify.

Thank you for your input.

The revised PDF is attached (I decided to skip trying to format it and make it "look pretty"...it's difficult when you cut a section out of a 2500 page book and paste into a new document...completely screws up formatting).

Again, I welcome additions to the checklists (I also re-reviewed the NATI sections on these cards... we can probably add a great deal to the confirmed #'s for individual subtypes, especially the scarcer ones.


 
Attached Files
pdf nsb_chapters_Actresses_2020.06.01.pdf (46.09 MB, 11 views)


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Chris Watson

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