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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi Gang, Just learned we have lost another member on net 54.
Can't we find it within ourselves to get along?
tony fryer
Reply with quote  #2 
whos gone now?
Reply with quote  #3 
Ralph has had enough of the BS. he just retired from an extremely high level international position and is one of the best guys i know.
Bill Bengen
Reply with quote  #4 
Hi all,

When I stated in the earlier post that I thought the raw card was overgraded, I had no idea that Ralph Perry was the seller, if that is true. In fact, I didn't care who the seller was, I was only looking at the card and assessing its grade as truthfully as I could.

If it's really Ralph who has left, that's sad, as he is a hobby veteran and a valued contributor to this forum.

I myself was subjected to a great deal of abuse in the early days of this forum, particularly relating to the grading issue. I swore for awhile I would never post here again, but decided to return. This forum is the best hope for the hobby, and I would prefer to stick around and try to modify behavior rather than abandon hope too soon.

Just the same, if it is Ralph who has departed, it underscores the need for mutual respect in our posts, and a tolerance of other viewpoints. Only NSC collectors can destroy their own hobby.

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen

Reply with quote  #5 
Bill - you use other people to grade your cards. Your view is affected by that as would be your assessment of Ralph's RAW card. Buying and selling and JUDGING graded cards is DIFFERENT than doing the same with raw cards - whether you like it or not. I only know Ralph from here. Many people come and go - the ebb and flow of things. Not sure why a thread like this would be the final straw for Ralph or any part of his leaving for that matter. While I don't read all the threads I do read many of them. I hadn't really noticed any Ralph bashing and a poster or 2 thinking his grade is off by a letter seems an unlikely reason to exit (keeping in mind Ralph hasn't said anything to me or publically on the board about stayimg or going). The post seemed innocent enough and Ralph could easily have given a short answer as explination. There are one or two people here I really don't like and imagine they don't like me much either given how nasty they are. Screw them. Unusual for me but I deal with it as this site is a good place to give and take a little. MUCH OF A REASON THIS HOBBY SURVIVES is that the interactions between people and the subsequent relationships that form are not mutually exclusive and work toward a common goal. The early collectors HAD to rely on others in a very cumbersome physical process to increase their knowledge and their collections. They helped get us to where we are. The internet makes many things easier for us. Let's try and monitor ourselves and bring this gift we are packaging into the future......

always friendly,

henry moses

(PS - always have agreed about posting one's name)
Bill Bengen
Reply with quote  #6 
Hi Henry,

Thanks for your courteous reply. It is true that I do use PSA to grade and encapsulate my cards, but I do feel competent to grade raw cards, after having examined tens of thousands of them. I use PSA because I am not certain when the time comes to sell my cards (which is a long way off), that someone will trust my grading. They are more likely to accept PSA's evaluation

I want to run an idea up the flagpole and see what you think of it. I believe that there is a double-standard in grading. There is, for example, the strict PSA definition of NM grade, with light touches of wear on a few corners. Then there is what I call "commercial NM": a grade which is intended to describe a card which appears fresh, without much wear, bright colors and glossy. However, the card might not meet the strict definition of NM, it is more likely to be EX-MT or even EX.

Some sellers, I believe, use the "commerical" grading system. I am certainly not implying that applies to Ralph Perry. I have no evidence to even suspect that. But I have seen enough evidence over the years that some sellers play fast and loose with the strict grading definitions to appeal to less sophisticated buyers. These buyers may not really be cheated, as they may be paying a fair EX-MT price for what may really be an EX-MT card. But they may think they are getting a NM card at a bargain price.

No harm done, then? Or is this more pernicious tha it sounds?

Best in collecting,

Bill Bengen
Mr. Moses
Reply with quote  #7 
Bill - I don't know if you are or are not able to grade your own cards but assume you're pretty good at it. You use a grading service that I assume agrees with your standards more often than not OR over time you've changed your views to agree with theirs. You know how PSA grades and they fit the definition for you (and many others). PSA unfortunately is not the US Bureau of Standard Grades and Qualifiers for Cardstock Collectibles........ If someone were to submit it to psa - Ralph's card might not grade near mint if this time PSA is in agreement with your cyberspace assessment. That's fine. Maybe in Ralph's eyes it would garner a mint designation from another grading company - should he have listed who else might grade his 9.00 card such and such in the description? He had a RAW card listed with big pictures for each person to make their own assessment of his statement that it's near mint. I think it was a fair and honest listing that I see nothing wrong with. Bill, I think you are right that the application of grades is by definition more difuse or less specific for raw cards - THAT MAKES SENSE TO ME - the examination and classification of the negative attributes is different. The specific grading TERMS are I believe most: it basically sucks, pretty nice, it's a great card. A GRADE WHETHER FROM TPG OR INDIVIDUAL IS A SUGGESTION - MOST USEFUL IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE CARD OR A FAULT. I'll listen to anyone who is interested in listening to me..........

always friendly,

henry moses
Bob Kuhl
Reply with quote  #8 
Gone as in passed on to the great beyond or gone as in he's upset with someone or something on our forum?
Lance Fittro
Reply with quote  #9 
"The specific grading TERMS I believe most are: it basically sucks, pretty nice, it's a great card"

I'll second that, for what weight my less-experienced vote may carry.

This kind of argument is exactly why I am usually careful to AVOID using standard grading terms (NM, EX, GOOD, etc), substituting words like "rough shape," "pretty nice," "has sharp corners," "pack fresh," etc. when selling cards. Even seasoned veterans who have many more years of experience with cards than I do and are 100% confident in their own grading ability are called to the carpet every day because someone else's opinion differs from theirs. With cards, it is simple enough to show a front and back scan and then describe any flaws that may not be obvious in the scan, and you've covered all your bases. Sure, we all have to make a judgement at some point to determine the value of one card compared to another since price guides don't have a "rough shape" or "pretty nice" column, but for things like cards that only have 2 sides that can both be easily shown with 2 images, I don't see the point in putting yourself out there (as a seller) and offering up an excuse for the buyer to be dissatisfied with the transaction. I catch enough grief over other petty details without having to worry whether a buyer's definition of EX matches mine. Frankly, I don't care whether the buyer thinks the card is VG or EX, because I don't pay my mortgage with grading points. If you're willing to pay more or less based on what you think the grade is, fine, we'll haggle on the price, but I'm not going to put myself in a position to argue over something that is subjective to begin with if I can help it.

Incidentally, with comic books I DO use technical grading terms partly because I have many more years experience dealing with them, but mostly because I DO NOT want to have to scan every page to avoid using those terms. It's a trade-off, and I do have to have the occasional argument with a buyer, but mostly I just let them return the item rather than bang it out with them. Occasionally I'll get a negative feedback on eBay from someone who thought that "Very Good" meant something more like "Near Mint," but I've gotten just as many disgruntled reviews from buyers who looked at the scan, read the grade I gave the comic, thought to themselves that I had undergraded, then got the comic and found that they had overgraded based on the scan and had buyer's remorse. You just can't please all of the people all of the time.

Lance Fittro
Bill Bengen
Reply with quote  #10 
Hi all,

I would add only that accurate grading- to the extent such a subjective process lends itself to accuracy by any measure- requires physical inspection of the card. Scans, which are 2-dimensional representations, are inadequate to determine the state of a 3-dimensional object.

Best in collecting, Bill Bengen

PS. And guys, thanks for signing your full names
Reply with quote  #11 
It ain't Me or Moi
Rick McQuillan
Reply with quote  #12 
It doesn't matter. After tonight we will all be gone. BTW, if you are a true believer that the world is ending tonight, you can send your cards to me.

Thanks, Rick
mr moses
Reply with quote  #13 
I wonder who John is.....
Lance Fittro
Reply with quote  #14 

What, and give the P.O. another excuse for a shipping delay?

I can hear it now: "Well, this tracking number isn't bringing up any information, and you know the world ended, so check back with us next week if the package hasn't shown up yet. No, not Monday, we'll be closed for Memorial Day."
Charley Ramone
Reply with quote  #15 
Ain't that fine!

So a board member (SOMEONE WE KNOW not just your regular ebay slob seller who reguarly sells overgraded cards, rediculous buy it nows and is NOT a board member) misgrades a $9 dollar card!

As I was first to mention (and others later)

Its a friggin 9 DOLLAR CARD!?? WHA!? If you don't think its worth it or think the grade is off....(WHAP)(UPSIDE YOUR HEAD) DON'T BID, DON'T BUY!

Instead we are going to take "pot shots" at one of our own??!!

Ralph has more class then to publicly engage on a ANON. Post over 1 listing. Don't blame him

Someone on here said months back I overgrade my cards. Message to all: I offer additional scans,big scans,full refund including shipping (READ: return Priviliges)(something the OLD SCHOOL folks,collectors KNOW About!)

I'm a very small collector,mid grade "flipper" to support my habit. Got a problem with that? Don't Bid!

Funny that the Buyer(Long time hi end collector) of my "overgaded" set told me how happy he was contridicting a bunch of "yahoo's" taking "pot shots" at me.

Not accusing all...but if the shoe fits...wear it and kick yourself in the tail!

"No Name Nits" is what we call them in the circles I run in.

Climb down from your majestic high horses you "PRO RAW EYEBALL GRADERS"!

Raw grading is SUBJECTIVE at best!

This is the most crazy Guano I have seen go down here at beloved NET54.

Where is the Love?

It's so easy to sit behind your computer and condemn other members over a minor mistake. Holy Crap Batman!

Ralph and I are not Close (though we have shared private emails) and am very sorry that he feels its best to stand back for a while.

There are others (You folks know who) that also hardly ever post anymore that were active prior.

I certainly hope RP returns to our fold.

Could see Critics of Non Board Members spouting off...but 1 of our own???

If you will look back, you will see that even after heated debate, level heads prevail and these are some of the best threads and contain "info" "opinions" that help grow this hobby...AND more importantly this board.

BTW...If you look at ebay listings for HOW...there are folded up,wrinkled,soiled cards that are not even cards anymore selling for not 9.95 but 12.95 14.95,19.95 etc.

Why don't we get our pitchforks and rope out and go after these people?

Golly Neds!

Don't mistake Kindness for Weakness.

"Tellin it like it is since 1969"
Chuck Ross
Reply with quote  #16 
Ralph is a great guy who I've known for many years. I'd hate to see him leave the board, we'd all be the poorer without his wisdom and enthusiasm.
Reply with quote  #17 
Current TPG grading standards are much stricter than old time dealer standards. I will use Hugh Jones grading as an example. I bought ALL of Hugh's R73 cards from Sandy Valente. Cards Hugh gtaded as MINT+++ graded out as best 6.5 to 7. I know what PSA8 & 9 30's R cards should look like. In my R21 set I have several PSA8's plus the only PSA9 that set has (A pop. 1 of 1 for the whole set).

I bought that PSA9 raw and when I was sorting them out, that card literally jumped off the table and pulled my eyeballs out of my skull. That is how nice it was. And this is after going throught several thousands of raw 30's R cards. The only card I own that I can say that about.

There is a reason that PSA8, 9, & 10's featch the prices they do.

I'm in the middle of a deal with Ralph P. right now - I do not think he is leaving the board.

Edited to add my full name:

Jaroslaw R. Hrechka (Call me Jerry)

Bill - This one is for you

Tom Boblitt
Reply with quote  #18 
Has always been issues between those who only buy graded cards and those who don't. I certainly wouldn't accuse anyone of the Ned thing but find it odd that Ned posted and then disappeared. The IP address was totally different than the other posters that I looked at. That doesn't mean that someone couldn't have created it from work or somewhere else. I'm not sure of the intent behind it all but it and the resulting commentary, coupled with the fact that Ralph is dwindling certain parts of his collection caused him to lose interest and want to stop posting. He explicitly told me not to bring it up which I did not. This is my first and last comment on it. Everyone has strong feelings with grading....TPG or not.

Hate to see Ralph leave...I think he will continue to lurk but not post. Regardless of all that, Ralph is someone that I will always have the strongest respect for based on the fact that when my wife and I were adopting our daughter from China and in Hong Kong for a few days in March of 2007, Ralph set us up with some of his people in Hong Kong who showed us a fantastic day of sightseeing and took immaculate care of us--without ever having met us. To this day, I've still not met Ralph. That has nothing to do with cards but it's illustrative of what a great person Ralph is.

Harold Thomas Boblitt
Reply with quote  #19 
Tom I collect/buy/sell bought raw poor cards going up the raw scale and also do the same with graded cards. To quote Miley Cyrus - I have the best of both worlds. But quite frankly raw card grade standards are much more lenient than TPG card grade standards.
tony fryer
Reply with quote  #20 
How do we know Ralph has left? I have done deals with him where I sent him some G-men tatoos he wanted and told him I would get something from him later. I think I waited 4 months or so to "cash in" He said he would send me the cards I wanted. He described them condition wise. I sold them as per his description (VG+, G, Nr M)and not 1 buyer complained about the "grading" So I can only speak asI find.I liked his grading standards.

I am like the majority here when I sell I always use CHECK SCANS TO JUDGE FOR YOURSELF. Ralph if you read this and want to trade anything contact me @

Tony F
Reply with quote  #21 
ralph had a bunch of cards listed and this one honestly slipped by. for people to call him out on such a rediculous card and low price it was uncalled for.

i have a subscription to the wrapper, has anybody tried to buy raw cards off of it? are those grades listed anywhere close to psa standards? no one writes about that, except i have read people say they do not buy raw cards because they are over graded (NM with pen markings, NM with paperloss)ect.

how many times has a psa or sgc high grade card tried to get crossed over and it gets rejected? remember GAI, try sending an 8 or 9 to psa,, trimmed

bottom line,, i like grading (sgc is my choice) but psa has made tons of mistakes over the years, wagner psa 8 anyone, but chasing plastic flips has changed the hobby and because someone thought it was funny to make up a BS post from a non existant person, you offended one of the best guys in the hobby.
Kurt K.
Reply with quote  #22 
Needless to say-- but I'll say it anyway-- we all want Ralph to come back. It's very painful to have anyone in a small group like this criticize you in a post, especially when it infers you're being dishonest. Few if any of us got into the hobby for underhanded reasons, like to screw other people out of one or nine dollars. If we send someone a set, and it's missing a card, that doesn't mean someone was trying to rip the other guy off. The same goes for people's grading. It's an OPINION, it happens, so we shouldn't assume the worst when it comes to disagreements (especially when full refunds are offered). It's only the repeat offenders who deserve a little more cynicism, and even that should be contingent of facts, not feelings.

I just hope Ralph sees this thread and knows we all value his input and don't want him to leave over something no one believed in the first place, because his personal reputation far exceeds any negative internet gripe.
Todd Riley
Reply with quote  #23 
When I run ebay auctions I use some software and copy an old auction and change it. I have missed certain details when I copied that I didn't catch until later after someone pointed it out to me. I'm not saying that was what Ralph did but it certainly could have been an honest mistake if the grade really was not as suggested. In the old America he would have been "innocent until proven guilty". I guess that just isn't the way anymore.
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