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Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #1 
I was about to list my Soupy Sales set on Ebay but i had 2 of them.
So i decided to build the best set out of all the cards and keep that one for my collection while selling off the other set.

However i ran into a problem.

Both sets were completely different.
All 66 fronts were different as well as one set had every back inverted.

Seems this is the norm as i just saw a seller who has both sets too.

What are the odds that i bought 2 sets over the past 20 plus years and got both variations.

Does anyone have an explanation as to what went on with this set.

Was it on Soupy's instructions to Topps that he wanted to goof on us which certainly would go with his character😉.

which is the real set?

Is one Rarer than the other?

Were there any mixed sheets out there using different fronts with the opposite back of the original set they were in?


Hoping to hear some Wisdom from my fellow collectors
thanks,
Amit
toppcat

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Reply with quote  #2 
Do you mean there are two fronts for every reverse and that the reverse can be oriented one of two ways as well?  Any scans to shows the differences? Benjamin mentions upside down reverses but not front variations.
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Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #3 
Your Wish is my command😉

I've scanned both card # 1's as well as both backs.
One back lines up with the same direction as the front while the other one is inverted from the front.. Fim Card408.jpg  Fim Card409.jpg 

toppcat

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Reply with quote  #4 
Wow!.. Are there 66 fronts just redistributed or 132 unique images?

I have a wallet "card" myself, really just thick paper and a little smaller to fit in the window of the Soupy wallets:

soupy wallet photo front.jpg
soupy wallet photo reverse.jpg 


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Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #5 
I'd say there are about 124 plus different front images with some common ones used over in the other set but numbered differently.

I assume there had to be different sheets...however we won't know if there were mixed sheets unless someone uncovers one.

It begs the question when was the oddball set issued and why?
MorrellMan

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Reply with quote  #6 
That is odd.  I've been building a vending-quality set for a few years and I'd always noticed some of the backs are inverted.  However, since I only seek one card of each number, I haven't noticed that the fronts are different.
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Mark Hellman
The Scooper

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Reply with quote  #7 

My best guess one issued in USA one in Canada

I have the same problem with my addams family set

MorrellMan

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Reply with quote  #8 
Here's a box that was sold earlier this year in Mile High's auction, listed as 1967:
[63754a_lg] 

This one in Heritage is listed as 1965:

[image] 

So the questions - are the box colors really different, or just a result of the image?  Do either of these auction houses necessarily know what they're talking about?


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Mark Hellman
Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #9 

If you look at the orange box on the far right edge you can see the brighter red.
My guess it's just colour fading which i've seen in other boxes too...

as for the Adam's Family..are you saying there is a second set where all the front images are different.
Now that would be interesting but not something i've ever heard of or encountered before.

I'll let my fellow Canadians chime in but i don't believe Soupy Sales was ever distributed in Canada.

Terry Gomes chime in😉 please..

I don't have a Sky projection for you yet but i'm working on it..

By the way if there was a Canadian version i'm betting the US version was upside down😉

toppcat

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Reply with quote  #10 
Wish they would show the box bottom for either, it reveals the old two digit postal code for Topps, not a ZIP code.  Soupy is the latest issue I can find with the two digits as ZIP codes were introduced in 1963. There is no commodity code on the box or wrapper, so it's not a 1967 issue. Topps was in Soupy mode in 1965, as were other companies.  I have a take on it here:  http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/2013/11/this-soupys-nuts.html

Some history of Soupy, excerpted from a Wrapper article I wrote in 2015, which I think backs up the 1965 date along with my blog post, i.e timed to when his TV show went into national syndication:

He first appeared on television in Cincinnati around 1949 and eventually moved on to Detroit in 1953 , hosting a children’s show called 12 O’Clock Comics.  This later became Lunch with Soupy and eventually The Soupy Sales Show. During this time he also hosted two other (grown up) shows in Detroit and was a bona fide TV personality there. In 1955 The Soupy Sales Show was syndicated nationally and five years later Soupy moved production to Los Angeles before being partially cancelled in 1961.  His show staggered on for another few months into 1962 as a local offering and occasional network fill-in.

Soupy then moved to New York and launched, in 1964, a new Soupy Sales Show on WNEW-TV.  This version lasted for two seasons and was syndicated nationally in 1965, probably no later than by the middle of the first season.  Infamously, on New Year’s Day 1965, irritated that he had to work on a holiday, he asked his audience to go into their fathers billfolds and send in “those little green pieces of paper.”  It only took a few days for the cash to start showing up and the inevitable backlash resulted in Soupy’s suspension from January 12-15, 1965. The Soupy Sales Show ended its syndicated and local runs on September 2, 1966. Soupy then moved on to Broadway for a spell.


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sthoemke

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Reply with quote  #11 
Sounds like it might be the back plate being printed upside down on the sheet for a duration of the print run.

Do any uncut sheets exists?
commishbob

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Reply with quote  #12 
I thought I read on a non-sports checklist site they 'flipped' the plate at some point during the press run. I'm not sure how it would work but about two-thirds of the way through building the 'set' raw I discovered that I had a mishmash of different oriented cards. It gave me a headache trying to figure out what I had, what I lacked and how I'd resolve it. I haven't gotten back to them since.

This would be a perfect time for a 'Soupy Sales marketplace exchange' so folks could get a set put together one way or another. [smile]

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Collecting Topps sets from the 60s...Civil War News and Mars Attacks (both completed), Soupy Sales (45/66) and cards of several actresses including Greer Garson, Ingrid Bergman, Ann Dvorak, and Claudia Cardinale.
Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #13 
If you assume it was just a flipping of a plate then you are ignoring the Elephant in the room...which is that each of the flipped backs have an all together different image on the fronts for the same corresponding number in the set.

We are definitely dealing with 2 distinct sets..

The question is why? and why flip the plates on the second set..

there are 132 different images on the fronts...granted about 5 were reused but with a different number.  some of the images that look different are actually the reverse image(i think)..in one he may be looking left and another to the right..that again was maybe on 2-3 images.
Terry G.

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Reply with quote  #14 
To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen any evidence that Soupy Sales was released in Canada. I know there is no unique packaging from O-Pee-Chee for this issue. It's also a set I haven't seen many examples of north of the border.

As for Addam's Family, a fellow collector has spent more time working on the variations than I have. However, I don't know if it's for the hand-stamped, "Printed in USA" (Canadian Donruss) set or the regular US issue. He has evidence that each card has two different puzzle backs and he also believes that there are two different fronts.
MorrellMan

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Reply with quote  #15 
Doc - FWIW, I know for a fact that I got #3 card of Soupy (at the table, on the right) out of an unopened pack I purchased on ebay a few years back.  I may be able to look it up later and see where the pack came from.

img1557.jpg  img1558.jpg 


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Mark Hellman
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Reply with quote  #16 
And, this is the wrapper it came in - I knew I'd saved it!!

img1559.jpg


To further muddy the waters, MIke Jasperson of Topps Vault, certifies this wrapper design from 1963!

[image] 


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Mark Hellman
Billyo9999

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Reply with quote  #17 
Dave, here's a box bottom from a completed eBay auction showing the 2-digit code.    The 2-digit code also appears in the copyright info on the box flap.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/SOUPY-SALES-Original-1967-Topps-Full-GUM-CARD-BOX-with-24-Wax-Packs-/264357710432?hash=item3d8cf28a60%3Ag%3A9PUAAOSwcgNZDC6%7E&nma=true&si=ou%252BkZrbrCwATAB%252FNspBr%252FpbhXCk%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[s-l1600]
[s-l1600]

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Bill O.
LuckyLarry

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Reply with quote  #18 
Several years ago Alan Miley trained me in his "axle/flip" method to located both backs. Here is my current want list

1967 Topps Soupy Sales: 046 (need both variations) 
look at the back of the card and flip clockwise 
Cards I HAVE and need the OTHER version using the axle/flip method: 
a) The front picture is sideways, with the top on your left: 
004 015 026 038 040 043 059 060 063 
b) The front picture is upside down: 
012 016 021 034 035 039 045 048 054 
c) The front picture is sideways, with the top on your right: 
005 006 020 027 053 
d) The front picture is right-side up: 
002 017 024 029 031 033

Larry
toppcat

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Reply with quote  #19 
Cool Bill.  Well, it may or may not have been Canadian as well, I think the flap verbiage is generic but it's interesting that most but not all card images repeat.  Topps may have just composed up a 132 card half sheet and went with all the pix they could get before running a little short.  They inverted backs on several sets, although usually due to a full bleed border or portion of one.
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Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #20 
Dave

Most do not repeat..there are at least 120 unique images for card fronts and only a handful of repeat images....

I have both full sets and compared each card number in both sets and the images are different in each set for that corresponding number.

Since the numbering is different on all the card front images they would have had to have  second set of sheets for the inverted set.
Amit
toppcat

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docsdrillers
Dave

Most do not repeat..there are at least 120 unique images for card fronts and only a handful of repeat images....

I have both full sets and compared each card number in both sets and the images are different in each set for that corresponding number.

Since the numbering is different on all the card front images they would have had to have  second set of sheets for the inverted set.
Amit


I'm not so sure they can't be from one 132 card halfsheet but it could certainly be another run and sheet. The thing flipping me out the most is the 8 or so repeated images.  They changed so many, why not the last handful?

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lcummins

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Reply with quote  #22 
OK, when I first saw this thread I was intrigued because I did not realize that "Soupy Sales" had variations, so I began doing research. I was unable to find any uncut sheet images, but I think I have still deduced the possible variations.

First off, there is ample evidence to support the hypothesis that the backs got rotated 180 degrees at some point during printing or possibly even during the print sheet layout. Just like the "Man On the Moon" issue we recently discussed, that would give us two numbers for every front image. I've looked at enough images to collate the pairs. The list below uses the numbers on the backs to show which two numbered backs are paired to two front images. Docsdrillers, I would be interested to know that if you looked at these pairs of numbers in your two sets, do you still have unique images (above the 66 known fronts)? I'm betting if you look at both images for cards #1 and #54 (for example), you will only have two front images.

01 - 54
02 - 34
03 - 64
04 - 20
05 - 18
06 - 26
07 - 33
08 - 65
09 - 24
10 - 59
11 - 12
13 - 23
14 - 47
15 - 41
16 - 17
19 - 38
21 - 43
22 - 40
25 - 32
27 - 36
28 - 62
29 - 61
30 - 52
31 - 45
35 - 50
37 - 66
39 - 55
42 - 46
44 - 60
48 - 58
49 - 51
53 - 57
56 - 63

Now, here is where things get interesting and very speculative! I believe Topps created their board layout for the 66 fronts and repeated that board to make Side A (132 cards) of the print sheet, and then repeated Side A to Side B for the full 264 card print sheet, as below.

264_PrintSheet_SoupySalesFrontssm.jpg 

But when it came to laying out the backs, Topps appears to have created two different board layouts... one with the backs facing right, and one with the backs facing left, but otherwise, the number arrangement stayed the same. Most likely, these two boards were repeated on both sides of the 264 card print sheet as below...

264_PrintSheet_SoupySalesBacks01sm.jpg 
That gives us two variations for each front... a back facing right and a back facing left. Now, if the backs got rotated 180 degrees during another print run, that would give us the two different numbers per front image... but also two variations (right and left) for those variations. Another possibility is that one side (backs) of the 264 card sheet got rotated 180 degrees during the print sheet layout. You can see from the direction the arrows are pointing that a rotated back sheet might have been difficult to tell it had been rotated.

264_PrintSheet_SoupySalesBacks02sm.jpg 
Therefore, and this is still very speculative as I have not found enough evidence to positively prove it yet, there are four variations for each front image making a master set of 264 cards! If one side of the backs were rotated on the 264 card sheet, all four variations could have occurred with just one 264 card print sheet!

Below is an example of all four variations of card #1; I have not found images of card #54 to verify all four variations on it, but I'm confident they exist.

0154_Variations.jpg 

So if anyone with more than one set can compare their cards, I think we can easily confirm the two numbers per front with no issues, and possibly find more proof of the same numbered back facing in both directions for each front as well. When I was researching images, I tried to find slabbed cards where I could be sure the back was oriented the same direction as the fronts. 9-pocket page images also would be useful, though not 100% since someone could have taken the cards out and rotated them before taking pictures, but that is not very likely, so I used them when I found them. Images of raw cards will not be useful for verification of the back facing right or left, since one can never know how the person flipped the card over.


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Lonnie Cummins
Docsdrillers

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Reply with quote  #23 
I'll gladly check some time this week.

I only checked that each number had a different image.in retrospect what i didn't check is if that image was unique or used by another card with a different number.

I'd have to lay out all the 66 cards per set checking each image across each set to determine how many unique images i actually have.

One other thing i didn't mention and i may be totally wrong is that certain cards felt as though a different card stock was used...i didn't pay close enough attention to say for certainty that all cards in the inverted set had a different thickness than the right sided set...

I found that some cards just felt more flimsy than others and not the same rigidity.

If true then we could be dealing with 2 totally different print runs and maybe at a different location too.
lcummins

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docsdrillers
I'll gladly check some time this week.

I only checked that each number had a different image.in retrospect what i didn't check is if that image was unique or used by another card with a different number.

I'd have to lay out all the 66 cards per set checking each image across each set to determine how many unique images i actually have.

One other thing i didn't mention and i may be totally wrong is that certain cards felt as though a different card stock was used...i didn't pay close enough attention to say for certainty that all cards in the inverted set had a different thickness than the right sided set...

I found that some cards just felt more flimsy than others and not the same rigidity.

If true then we could be dealing with 2 totally different print runs and maybe at a different location too.


Recent information that has come to light, as detailed by Dave Hornish on his blog, is that fronts and backs may very well have been printed by two different printers! It would not be a surprise if slightly different card stock were used between printers or that print sheets got rotated when the other side was printed by a different printer!

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Lonnie Cummins
toppcat

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcummins


Recent information that has come to light, as detailed by Dave Hornish on his blog, is that fronts and backs may very well have been printed by two different printers! It would not be a surprise if slightly different card stock were used between printers or that print sheets got rotated when the other side was printed by a different printer!


To wit:

http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/2019/11/regional-lithographic.html

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Dave Hornish

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