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1880nonsports

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CAN ANYONE SOLVE THE MYSTERIES BEHIND THESE SILKS??? TAKE NOTE OF THE ORIENTATION - HARD TO MAKE SENSE OF IT - AND - THEY ARE ALL CUT LIKE THIS. THERE IS MORE THAN ONE OF EACH..... NOW HAVE AT IT.

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Mr. Moses

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Reply with quote  #2 
I know absolutely nothing about silks but from an IE standpoint, it provides a more efficient use of material to print(?) those two items that way.
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tm

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Reply with quote  #3 
Henry - How many do you have? & who else do they include besides Gen. Grant?  Was Lee included?  I'm curious on the year they came out (glad to see they are protected).  This may seem crazy but I often wonder
what year the planter made his debut? I have an envelope postmarked July 17, 1886 from Ginter's NYC office.  How do you protect your old cards? like the silk above?  What happenned to this years National?  I know it 
must have been canceled but where was it suppose to be?    I know too many questions, but life goes on.   tm
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Reply with quote  #4 
TM-  there are 10 Generals including Lincoln and Davis and 10 Indians,   there are pics on the galley under silks and are uncatalogued! They are the first items listed under the Silks!  I own all ten generals and 5 of the Indians.  Bruce
1880nonsports

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Joe that might make sense in another situation but here that would infer they were meant to be separated from each other but they are a paired item - the advertising should accompany the item I would think. They would then have the correct orientation. At least I think so - that's why it's a tough one. I'll have to look in gallery again - none have proof marks right? That means more than one sheet existed - all of the sheets however many there were - the items were ALL cut in a haphazard manner - and so far there is no proof sheet or evidence of their existence or use.

Ted do a search for "the old planter" and see the wealth of information contributed by master detective Tim. Learn the secrets and the origin of the man on as well as behind the canvas :-) It's a great read and look for some of the threads relating to the Marquis card. Lot of information therein.

Bruce's silks and leathers are of a world class status.

Bruce - did you see or do you own the proof patch of the generals silks featuring three of the generals? I recently came across an archived picture - was going to send but lost it for now. It was on the 'Bay and I chased it for most of the listing time but gave up at some point. The orientation was weird, I think it was stained or something, and I guess i just wasn't fully into it at the time? The generals silk thread made me think of it :-) It was 7/8 years ago or maybe a bit more - I regretted it afterwards but that's not new and somehow I've moved on as I always do. There's ALWAYS something else to be had that's "important". Never can own it all.

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Mr. Moses
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Reply with quote  #6 
The Gallery lists 10 Civil War Leader sand 7 Indian subjects. Bruce, you note 10 Indian subjects, are there 3 more?

The gallery link is here: http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/S91/go.html

The gallery notes that the "Dreier Collection" was studied. I wasn't around when the Dreier Collection was sold, but it looks like it was some event, including a T206 Wagner:

Dreier Collection.jpg 

In terms of the orientation of the silk, I would presume that this relates to the idea that silks could be stitched into pillowcases, quilts or similar. In this case the size (roughly 10 x 7 inches) could suggest doubling over the silk and making a tobacco pouch, perhaps? In which case the orientation would make sense when looked at this way.

The post on the Old Planter is here: https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/post/1849-ad-the-model-for-the-n33-old-planter-10192854?highlight=old+planter&pid=1310220236

The original trademark exhibit from 1878 (John F Allen, pre-dating Allen & Ginter brand name change) is here: https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1311168872&postcount=39&forum=627991

I have a little bit more info on this iconic image, and will start a new thread to bring all the info together - but this will need to wait until I have a bit more time!


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1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #7 
Tim - you know I believe EVERYTHING you say but I have to at least question this:

In terms of the orientation of the silk, I would presume that this relates to the idea that silks could be stitched into pillowcases, quilts or similar. In this case the size (roughly 10 x 7 inches) could suggest doubling over the silk and making a tobacco pouch, perhaps? In which case the orientation would make sense when looked at this way.

I've seen a lot of unusual configurations but nothing like this and to suggest that such an item might be unfurled and utilized as part of a direct sale item is a stretch. It's manufacture I believe pre-1900 and utilizing/re purposing such an item by consumers at the suggestion of a tobacco company is an idea 20 years away. Rather they tended to give away something in exchange for "tickets" or package fronts. Also if the silk was the outer part to be made into pouches then it is incomplete in terms of the final product - lacking whatever else would adorn it.

Just free-rolling before my eyes are even open all the way. I honestly haven't thought about this in a while - was actually hoping Tim would uncover something in terms of advertising inserts from some publication.



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Mr. Moses
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Reply with quote  #8 
A couple of notes on this series:

My guess is that these generals/Indians were wrap-arounds for some type of tobacco product, which would make the orientation of the two pictures make more sense. These were 1880's, not associated with the main tobacco silk era of 1911-1915, and the tobacco companies weren't really advertising silks as something to sew into pillow cases, wall hangings, etc. back then, but who really knows.

Can someone confirm (or correct the one below) the EXACT titles as shown on the following:

13..Shawanoh, the Ute Chief who was sent
to Washington in 1863 to treat
with the United States Government

14..Crow Chief, from the Rocky Mountains,
in Gala Dress

15..Osceola, leader of the Semlnoles during their
war against the United States (after catlin)

16..Blackfoot Indian Chief

17..Canadian Indian

The Gallery listing has an error - Robert Edmund Jackson is actually Robert Edmund Lee - so yes, Lee was included in the series.

I still am baffled by why there are two sizes.

Chad Dreier was a great guy and had a tremendous collection. I consider myself fortunate to have known him and to have had the opportunity to study a portion of what he had. He was always so gracious and generous, and a true collector. I know that most of his tobacco silks were sold to a collector in England but am not sure whether that included the Allen & Ginter silks he had.

Bob

1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #9 
As far as the Drier collection - Chad was a very nice man who decided he wanted it all (or at least he was encouraged to do so by the people selling him things - it starts to snowball) and set out with his son to accomplish it. People were very willing day and night to sell him things from coupons to meteors and I believe he became overwhelmed. He accumulated an amazing array of rare and high end items and complete "sets" of cards and collectibles that I believe have since been sold subsequent to his retiring. I sold him a few of my best pieces (I don't/didn't have many as I'm no whale) including a complete set of the large women baseball store photos. I've been looking for a couple of other rare things I sold him to come back to market and did manage to get a tough trade card back into the fold.
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Mr. Moses
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Reply with quote  #10 
You definitely shouldn't believe everything I write, Henry - but it helps get the ideas rolling .......

Alan Stevens in the UK is the expert on silks - he published his superb Silks reference handbook (cartophilic reference book 138) with an update in softback in 2016. If anyone wishes to buy this, it can be purchased here:   https://www.card-world.co.uk/updated-silk-handbook/

silks stevens.jpg 


For these A&G Silks, CRB138 records 11 known Civil War Leaders and 10 known Indian Scenes.

A&G silks 1.jpg 


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non-sports daniel

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I have stated before on this forum that that silk book is awesome. There is a crap ton of information in it. It’s an amazing reference book.
1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #12 
I have the book but it answers none of the questions. We didn't even get to the different sizes thing and the mirror image. I did note in the book that he called the cigar ribbons that came before boxes that were used to house cigars - tobacco silks. Well they are - and they aren't [smile]
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Mr. Moses
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Reply with quote  #13 
I’m not saying that it answers any specific questions. Just that it’s a great reference book.
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Reply with quote  #14 
Sadly, Chad Dreier passed away in January of 2019.
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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tm
What happenned to this years National?  I know it  must have been canceled but where was it suppose to be? 

Postponed until like 13-16 December in Atlantic City, NJ.  Depending on how many dealers cancel or if travel restrictions remain or increase (with the fall/winter flu season), it may just get canceled altogether.

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