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GregG

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Reply with quote  #1 
Looking to see if I could find a listing for these A&G cards
April20Ups008.jpg  April20Ups007.jpg 
In my 1967 edition of the ACC is {below}... Are these H230s? 
April20Ups006.jpg 

Looking down the list I recognize some and not others - wondering how many we can match images too.


I'm pretty sure these would be considered H233's, do you have any cards from this list?

April20Ups010.jpg  April20Ups009.jpg 

1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hmmmm. Not sure about your question BUT would say yes if "pressed" :-) however I do now see as a result of your post that my stevengraphs have an "H" number!!!! Strange way to refer to them as "silks in center"..... 
Back to your question - there are a few different "sets" (an arbitrary separation?) of the gold background and they were around when he was cataloging and he didn't put them elsewhere so I'd say yes by default. I believe you could fairly easily cross reference with the WTI edition that deals with tobacco trade cards. If you don't have it - ask me and I'll try and look it up. It would also cover the other trade cards you've shown - I have sets of a few :-). When describing the listing he openly referred to the inherent ambiguities. Given more time likely he would eventually have tried for more specificity. He recognizes the extra large Yale actresses but not the releases of other companies. There are many cases where a PICTURE like those found in our GALLERY would have been great - I'm sure having a computer and a net54 in the 30's would have been helpful too [biggrin]

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tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #3 
Bit tied up with work stuff at the moment.

But the World Tobacco Index 3 (of 5) contains an unbelievable index of A&G trade cards, such as these. It runs to 12 pages. It also has a new section Xb4 covering American trade cards related to tobacco firms. Its cartophilic ref. book 28 (CRB 28), from 1976.

It was compiled by Edward Wharton-Tigar and leaned heavily (I believe) on his monthly trips to the USA where he studied Jefferson Burdick's collection, alongside his own even more extensive collection.

The New World Tobacco Issues Index comes in two parts, CRB 123 (A-K) and CRB 124 (L-Z and Anonymous) and was published in 2000. It brings together WTI parts I, II, III, IV, V, but unfortunately omits these tobacco/cigarette trade cards. It didn't have room for the trade cards and focused on insert cards, in the main, with a few exceptions (for example to maintain consistency with the ACC in places).

If you haven't got WTI 1-5 and the New World Index 1/2, then they can be picked up second hand, or some copies are still available at the CSGB (go to http://www.card-world.co.uk), but some are out of print these days. They are certainly not as pricey as the old ACCs. You can also PM me and I may have a copy or two for sale second hand. 

The ACC doesn't do these trade cards justice. We know, for example, the baseball comics were extended from the ACC listings by Frank Keetz in his books.

For Henry's benefit, the silk Stevengraphs are described in WTI (III, page 10) shown below. These correspond to H234 in ACC, as you can see - but there are only 3 different designs noted.

WTI stevengraphs.jpg 

Here's item 1 above, courtesy of Henry's previous pictures.

stevengraph2.jpg 

Plus one known as "For Life or Death" which Henry has shown previously:

stevengraph1.jpg 


And a more complete contemporary listing of A&G Stevengraphs, below:

Good old days.jpg 

Plus one more for good luck:

stevengraph cleveland.jpg


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(ii) And any cards pre-1885, particularly Thos. H. Hall.
1880nonsports

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Reply with quote  #4 
the base ball listings were not only worked on by Keetz Sr. and Jr. but also cataloged by our own Ron Schieber (RIP) whose listings of many sets of trade cards can still be purchased from his wife....
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rhettyeakley

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Reply with quote  #5 
I have always included the various Allen & Ginter trade card series as HP1-A (page 21 in the 1967 ACC copy I have.) That is how I have always cataloged the various Pet/Little Beauties, etc brand trade cards.

The H230-H233 sets are specific to the description in the ACC, BUT the ACC could easily be added to and believe it should to make sense of these various sets (simply something Burdick just never took the time to do himself). We, here, could come up with 20-30 different issues found frequently featuring only Allen & Ginter's various brands.
tim_uk

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Reply with quote  #6 
Rhett, Greg, Henry, all,

The topic of "19th century tobacco trade cards" is enormous.

As you can see from the cursory listing at top of this thread, the ACC barely scratched the surface.

The CSGB WTI volume 3, noted earlier in this thread, provided a rich collection of A&G trade card references (12 pages), plus an appendix Xb4, entitled "Early American Advertising Cards" which runs to around 36 pages (restricted to tobacco-related). And the WTI does include some trade cards in the main index, with the manufacturer of insert cards.

And Todd's site has many advertising/trade cards listed and pictured.

Not sure if the NSB (Chris) has been collating these too?

Don't think I've seen much on tobacco trade cards in the Gallery, unless I've missed it, which is more than possible?

I'm not an expert, but the early advertising/trade card phenomenon seemed to run from around the late 1870s to around the mid 1880s. The 1876 Centennial International Exhibition (CIE), Philadelphia, is where some of the very earliest trade cards can be found. Edward Wharton-Tigar put the earliest tobacco trade cards at 1876 - there's a nice Kimball example from the CIE, that appears quite regularly on eBay (pictured below). 

There are many (many) A&G trade cards, plus Kinney, Kimball, Goodwin, Marburg, Blackwell Durham also chipped in. Not so much from Duke, as they only took off in a big way in the mid-1880s.

I did broach the subject with Martin Murray and he would welcome such an endeavour and contribute.

Perhaps a joint CSGB/VNSF/NSB/non-sport endeavour?

I'm guessing the trade card community would also be great contributors, with listings already available in some of their works (eg the Keetz/Scheiber listings for baseball trade cards, some of which are tobacco-related).

We could set up a new thread in the (under-used) Projects area of the forum? Is there some interest in this?


One of the earliest tobacco trade cards, 1876 Centennial Exposition:

Kimball 1876.jpg


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Interests:
(i) Old card hobby history, particularly vintage publications - magazines, price lists, books, hobby correspondence.
(ii) And any cards pre-1885, particularly Thos. H. Hall.
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